Conflict entrepreneurs get money, influence and power by sparking anger and outrage. The Braver Angels call for courageous citizenship does precisely the opposite. In this podcast we hear the case for citizen power not paralysis, action not reaction, and why building America's civic muscle is so much better than burning things down.

Here is a passionate, thoughtful and curious conversation between Braver Angels C.E.O. Maury Giles and Wilk Wilkinson, Director of Braver Angels Media Operations. Both came to their work with the campaign after years in the private sector. Maury and Wilk are conservatives in a movement where a majority is either independent or leans blue.

Our episode is the latest in more than two dozen "How Do We Fix It?" discussions on the people, projects and ideas of America's largest organization committed to civic renewal and building trust across partisan divides. The edited recording was first published in longer form by Wilk's podcast, "Derate The Hate".

Just over three months into his new role as leader of Braver Angels, we hear from CEO Maury Giles about his hopes, plans and goals for America's largest volunteer-led movement working to bridge partisan divides and disagree better for the common good.

“America has lost much of its civic muscle, and it's time to get it back”, Maury tells our host, Richard Davies.

Rising polarization, declining trust in public institutions and the media, the spread of misinformation, the longest-ever government shutdown, and recent political violence are all signs that something is deeply wrong with our public square.

"We're trying to help people understand first and foremost that the choice you have to make is that of personal agency: To say am I going to act or react?,” Maury says.