Conflict entrepreneurs get money, influence and power by sparking anger and outrage. The Braver Angels call for courageous citizenship does precisely the opposite. In this podcast we hear the case for citizen power not paralysis, action not reaction, and why building America's civic muscle is so much better than burning things down.

Here is a passionate, thoughtful and curious conversation between Braver Angels C.E.O. Maury Giles and Wilk Wilkinson, Director of Braver Angels Media Operations. Both came to their work with the campaign after years in the private sector. Maury and Wilk are conservatives in a movement where a majority is either independent or leans blue.

Our episode is the latest in more than two dozen "How Do We Fix It?" discussions on the people, projects and ideas of America's largest organization committed to civic renewal and building trust across partisan divides. The edited recording was first published in longer form by Wilk's podcast, "Derate The Hate".

"At the end of the day the common thing we're trying to get to is how do you get out of the outrage cycle so you can see clearly what you're going to do next," says Maury.

Hear about about America’s crisis of mistrust, and the responsibility of citizens to act with courage, instead of reacting with fury and fear. Gain a fully understanding of the case for courageous citizenship. Learn why it's important to recruit more conservatives to our movement. Get the scoop about "A Pledge Renewed", the theme of this year's Braver Angels Convention in Philadelphia. This episode covers them all and a good deal more.

Here's a link to "The Power of Giving Away Power How The Best Leaders Learn to Let Go", by Matthew Barzun, mentioned by Maury during the conversation. Thank you to Wilk for his help and giving us permission to share this discussion.