Conflict entrepreneurs get money, influence and power by sparking anger and outrage. The Braver Angels call for courageous citizenship does precisely the opposite. In this podcast we hear the case for citizen power not paralysis, action not reaction, and why building America's civic muscle is so much better than burning things down.

Here is a passionate, thoughtful and curious conversation between Braver Angels C.E.O. Maury Giles and Wilk Wilkinson, Director of Braver Angels Media Operations. Both came to their work with the campaign after years in the private sector. Maury and Wilk are conservatives in a movement where a majority is either independent or leans blue.

Our episode is the latest in more than two dozen "How Do We Fix It?" discussions on the people, projects and ideas of America's largest organization committed to civic renewal and building trust across partisan divides. The edited recording was first published in longer form by Wilk's podcast, "Derate The Hate".

“Our political leaders— left, right, and center— have a thin view of citizenship,” says Braver Angels co-founder Bill Doherty. He argues that everything from healthcare and education to public safety and politics “is the work of we the people. That’s the robust idea of citizenship…Ultimately the big problems are those of all of us”

This episode features an interview recorded for “Derate The Hate”, a podcast hosted by Wilk Wilkinson in collaboration with Braver Angels, the nationwide movement that brings citizens together across political divides, and pushes back against grievance, outrage and toxic polarization.

As Wilk writes in his show notes about this interview: “This is not about partisan politics—it’s about restoring a sense of shared responsibility in our communities through intentional dialogue and real problem-solving.”

Bill and Wilk discuss a new definition of citizenship and other topics, including how structured conversations can transform toxic divides, and why personal accountability is essential in civic life.